A Conversation on Emotions with Author David Sauvage
This is the transcript from episode 150 of The Path to Authenticity.
It features my conversation with author and empath, David Sauvage, and was recorded live on the Clubhouse app.
If this is your first time here, thanks for checking it out. If not, thanks for coming back. I'm Tom Gentry, and this is The Path to Authenticity. Episode 150, for November 16, 2021, features a conversation with author and empath David Sauvage. He's someone who I would characterize as extraordinarily emotionally intelligent, and articulate. I came across the talks that he does on the Clubhouse app some time ago, and I see as much value in what he does there as anyone I've encountered.
One of the things that I talk about frequently is that the way we connect with each other, the way we build intimacy with each other, and have meaningful connections in our relationships is by connecting on an emotional level. And, this is one of the reasons why I feel like it's very important that we learn how to be emotionally literate - those of us who are challenged with that.
This was just a conversation where we went pretty deep, and I guess what I want to say about it is, as I was going through and editing the sound, it just felt good. I felt like David and I created a connection to each other. I felt connected to him. And, it's because the depth of the conversation that we had. So, it was very satisfying. I think you're going to enjoy it. I know I did. And, He's going to go on to do even greater things. So, here you go, David Sauvage ...
Tom Gentry: I was thinking about what to say to lead into this with you, and I think one of the things I really appreciate about your presence on Clubhouse is that depth of conversation is very important to me. I don't really enjoy small talk all that much. But, if you want to tell me your life story, I'll give you my time.
And, I've kind of involved myself in several different communities on this app, and I often find myself thinking when a conversation is evolving, “man, they're about to strike gold. I hope they stay with it.” But, they can't tolerate the intimacy of the subject matter, so they end up veering off into something else. But, that never happens with you. The rooms that I've been in of yours, there's always an extraordinary amount of depth, and in conversation, you're very articulate about the emotional experience. You know your stuff. But, you also model the process of navigating through emotions with people. And, I just love that. So, I appreciate you taking the time to do this and I'm looking forward to learning about you and how you became this person, who so clearly models for us how I think we should live. Because, I feel like, in our culture, we're really missing the boat with the emotional connection. So, I love it. I'm really happy to have you here and I'm looking forward to learning about you, and how you came to do this type of work.
David Sauvage: Thank you for that introduction. It feels good. I lose track of what I'm doing. A lot of the time. I don't lose track of why. So, I'm always connected to the why of what I'm up to. But, I'm often disconnected from the how, or whether it's making any dents out there, or even whether people are sensing it for real. And, every once in a while someone shows up and sees what I think I'm doing - meaning the way you're seeing it is the way that I see it, too. And, that feels really good.
So, thank you for that, and I'm happy to answer any question. And, the more uncomfortable the better, if that's how you want to go.
Tom: Yeah. Well, I will say, I ended up on a stage in one of your rooms a couple weeks ago, where you were walking through, basically providing a therapy session for a friend of yours, who was having sort of an acute anxiety experience. Right?
David: Becca.
Tom: Yeah, which was awesome. I loved it. And, then I messaged you about doing this. And, your response was something like “I'm into it,” or “I'm feeling it,” and that's exactly why I wanted to talk to you. And, you did it just now. I mean, you're so clear about where you are emotionally, and it's very disarming. And, to me, it demonstrates to us how it doesn't have to be a scary thing, to live an emotional life. And, I think, especially guys, we just avoid it. We pretend like it doesn't happen. Yeah. So, I'm really excited.
So where did you grow up, David?
David: I grew up in Los Angeles, California. In an area called Laurel Canyon, that some of you know the name of. I grew up in a middle class, then upper-middle class household. I was born in 1980. The 80’s were my childhood. My mother is a lawyer, an entertainment lawyer, a very successful one. My father is a documentary filmmaker, and a historian who has had his own share of success? I'm answering all the questions you haven't asked about my childhood, but I feel like I should keep going.
Tom: Keep going. Keep going …
David: Yeah, it was a very intellectual household. My dad is an intellectual. There were a lot of words and thoughts at the dinner table growing up. There wasn't a lot of feeling, or at least there wasn't a lot of engagement with the emotional level of things, but there was a lot of thinking and talking. So, you were pointing out some of my gifts earlier, and one of my gifts is my ability to put things into words. And, some of that is innate. But, I think a lot of it I learned from my dad, who's also very articulate. And, the family I grew up in really prizes the ability to put things into words. I have a younger sister, Rebecca. Seven years younger. I went to a mix of public and private schools. Yeah. I smoked a lot of pot in high school. I used to go to the race track a lot. My best friend's names were James and Andrew. What else can I tell? You.
Tom: What were you into as a kid?
David: Basketball. I was a huge fan of the Lakers. I still am to some extent. Magic Johnson was my idol. I was also an avid table tennis player, and actually quite good. Good enough that I could compete in national tournaments. What else was I into? I was into baseball cards. I was into cards a little bit. I remember as a kid, we would be driving around. I would point out the fancy cars. “Oh, look at that Ferrari Testarossa.” Those really excited me. What else was I into? I was into, not as a kid, but as a teenager, I got really into movies. I was also very much into literature. If you'd ask me who my hero was at 15 or 16, I might have told you Dostoyevsky. It's... A little about me is into writing. I was into theatre. Still am. I was into storytelling. Still am.
Tom: So, you mentioned the Lakers. You said you still are a fan, to some extent. I think that's how you put it. So, I'm curious about this, because I grew up in Indiana, where basically all you have is sports. So, I have teams that I've always followed, and that was also a big part of the emotional connection with my family. We watched basketball together. We watched Notre Dame football together. So, there was a strong attachment to it. But, having done a lot of work on myself, I found myself ... Notre Dame had a really great season in 2012, but every single game was a nail biter. And, about halfway through the season, I asked myself, why are you doing this? You know, you're choosing to be on this emotional roller coaster. That you really ... Is this really enjoyable? And, ever since then, for the most part, I've really distanced myself a little bit. So, is that part of why you've backed away from the Lakers. Does it have anything to do with that?
David: I was never a big fan of Kobe Bryant's. So, when the Lakers ...
Tom: So much simpler.
David: There was a period after Magic Johnson, and before Kobe Bryant, where the Lakers were just not very good. We could call it the Nick Van Exel era. And, I lost track of them a bit. And, by the time they got good, their star player didn't do it for me. Though I still maintained a connection, and I was still very happy when the Lakers, for instance, beat Boston, probably 10 or 15 years ago now, with Kobe at the helm.
Anyway, so no, I don't. I don't think there is a connection between my decreasing interest in the Lakers and my increasing emotional awareness. In fact, there's a sport that I'm an even bigger fan of than basketball. Though I didn't really become into it until more in my 20’s. But, I became a huge boxing fan, which is probably surprising to people who follow me.
There was a period where I knew more about the sport of boxing than I knew about anything else in the world. I had an encyclopedic knowledge of it, and I could have told you, at any given moment, literally, who the top 100 boxers were in the sport off the top of my head. I was that obsessed. In the last few years that interest has waned, and now I could tell you who four or five of the best fighters are. I went from watching three or four fights a week to three or four fights a year. So, my interest in boxing has waned.
There probably is a correlation between my increased sensitivity to the subtle realms, and my decreased interest in the sport of boxing. But, that said, there is something about boxing that continues to capture my interest, and that I still think is spectacular. And, that is that …
… boxing is the most authentic sport that I know of. When you see two boxers fight, I really feel like you see them. It's very hard for them to pretend. They are just right there. That's who they are.
Or, that's a real part of who they are. And, I love that about boxing.
You can't say that about basketball, for instance. You can sort of see how far somebody is willing to go. How much are they willing to put themselves out there? But, that's not fundamental to the sport. I'm thinking of a basketball player I really admire, who's in his prime right now, named Jimmy Butler. If you're. If you're a basketball fan, you know who he is, and if you're not, you don't. He's one of those stars that only fans know of. He's not just talented. He's clearly very passionate. And, he wears his heart on his sleeve. And, a couple of years ago, Miami made a run to the NBA Finals. That was a big surprise, and he was the star of Miami. And, you saw him put his body out there, game after game, pushing himself all the way to his limit. And, you really saw this beautiful man's character. But, that is the exception, not the rule in basketball. For the most part, you don't see people’s soul in basketball. But, if you watch any boxing match, you'll see a man's soul. If you know how to look for. And that's why I love, loved, and still love boxing. But there's also so much toxic masculinity, for lack of a better phrase and so much inhumanity in the sport, not in the violence so much, but in the sport as a whole, that prevents me from fully enjoying it the way I used to.
Tom: So, what do you do for a living, David? How do you answer that question?
David: Badly. It's a ... It's a struggle for me. It's not a struggle for me in my life, but it's a struggle for me to answer. I think you mean where do my streams of income come from? And, they come from a lot of different directions. One is that I have been holding retreats for a while. That does provide some income. Another is that at any moment somebody can just give me money for what I'm offering to the world. And, that provides a little bit.
I've also periodically gotten corporate consulting jobs where I'll do a training on emotional intelligence, or recently I helped facilitate a large group of executives to come to a consensus on the name of a brand that they were to launch. And, that paid relatively well for a relatively minimal amount of time. Oh, I think how I make a living is I keep offering myself in ways that feel good. If people are willing and able to finance me in doing that, that feels great. Sometimes, I reluctantly charge for that work that feels really great, and then, sometimes, people show up and say “I like what you're doing. Maybe you can help me, and I'm head of HR at such and such company,” and that pays the bills too.
Tom: So how did you get to this place in life, where, I guess, you're an empathy expert? How did this come to be?
David: Do you mean how did I get to a place where I feel comfortable saying that I'm an expert at empathy? Or, how did I get to a place where the brand seems to make sense? Like, is it a professional question or a personal one?
Tom: It's more a personal, your life evolution. What led you to do this type of work?
David: I'm sure there's something inherent in me that makes me sensitive to other people’s emotions. By sensitive, I don't mean more caring. I don't mean more compassionate. I mean, literally, that I'm more sensitive to the experience of other people's emotions. This is something I was born with. I am, in other words, the word I use for this, is an empath.
This quality, though, was obscured even for myself. I didn't know it until about 10 years ago. And, what changed was that I started to do real deep healing work on myself. I was, until then, and for a few years after it, really depressed. Like very, very depressed. I don't like the word. I mean, I'll use the word depressed because it's accurate. But, it doesn't ...That word almost feels clinical, and doesn't capture the sickness, and pain, and emptiness, and despair that feel truer to me than the word depressed.
But, anyway, I was quite depressed. And, fortunately, I oriented my life around understanding what was going on inside me, and working through this depression. That became my singular purpose. And, what emerged through that process was that, one of, if not the central cause of my depression was that I was holding other people's emotions in my body. I was like a sponge that kept absorbing, but never releasing. So, I went through a multi-year journey of first understanding that and then, second, releasing all of these emotions, most of which weren’t mine. And as a consequence, really starting to understand how emotions work, how they interact with the body, how to process them, what a healthy relationship to emotions is.
And, then, this latent sensitivity was right there on the surface. And, suddenly, I found myself really feeling all of the feelings in a room. “Oh, I'm feeling you. You feel anxious. I'm feeling you. You feel sad. I'm feeling you. You feel enthusiastic.” And these feelings are floating through my body. My awareness of your experience is because I'm having a subtle version of the experience you're having. And, we've talked about this before already, this lucky gift that I have to put things into language that predated all of this. I was always good at that, as far back as I can remember speaking.
And so, combining this newfound sensitivity with my ability to articulate things made me a de facto expert on empathy. I think I also have a natural curiosity for human psychology. I don't think that that's ... I don't think that that's something I had to work for. I think it's just what I get. You know, some people have engineering minds. Some people have mathematical minds. Some people are just naturally very creative in certain ways. I'm naturally very psychologically attuned. I'm really curious about what's going on in people's psyches, and I'm really curious about what can be done to help them.
So, all that together, in a soup, is how I became a quote/unquote empathy expert. Probably a better phrase, that I don't use, is just like a human expert, or an expert on what's really going on inside people? And, one way of thinking about that is in terms of empathy.
Tom: So, one of the things that I wonder about listening to you is, you know, I think I have some of what you're talking about. Probably not to the magnitude, in terms of the sensitivity, to be able to have an understanding of what someone else is experiencing from an emotional standpoint, in a room. And, I also believe that, at least to some extent, we all have some of this ability. And, it's a matter of whether we are tuned into it or not. And, whether we're clear enough or not. And, you obviously did a lot of work on yourself, and you cleared away the emotion that you were carrying around, and made room for the sensitivity, to be able to tune in. Right?
So, what are your thoughts on that? Do you think your gift is something that, at least to some degree, all of us have, or it's entirely unique? What do you think about this?
David: In terms of my gifts to feel other people's emotions, I think there's a natural spectrum. And, some people are just going to be naturally more sensitive than others, as with everything. My friend Skyler, for instance, is extremely sensitive to sound. She can hear things that I cannot. And, that means that when she's in a loud environment, she shuts down much faster than I do. I'm not particularly sensitive to sounds, but I am pretty sensitive to feelings - the feeling realm, around me. So, I would put myself in the top 20 percent of innate sensitivity, feeling what's going on emotionally in a room, but I wouldn't even put myself in the top 5%, or maybe even the top 10%. I think there are a lot of people who are a lot more sensitive than me, innately.
But, most people who are more sensitive than me, innately, are as blocked or more blocked than I was. Because …
… sensitivity in an insensitive culture, in a culture that does not prize sensitivity, is more of a burden than a gift.
And, it is easier to close down than it is to open up.
There's another important facet here, which is that a lot of people who do have this innate sensitivity, even if they aren't all closed down, they are open to it, they are not going to be as extroverted on the whole as I am. So, I'm out there being loud and clear about a gift I have that people who have this same gift tend not to be as able to be as open, as able to express it, as I am. So, in a way, I'm. standing for a whole bunch of people who are actually more gifted in this very way than I am. That are less able to make a big splash with that.
Some of this is also gendered. There's something really interesting about a man owning his sensitivity, that people are more apt to listen to, than a woman owning her sensitivity, which is a tragic consequence of a fundamentally sexist culture, that, in some ways, I am, as I go out branding myself an empath, in some ways I'm benefiting from. But, in another way, I'm also helping to shift by using this privilege, I think, mostly for good.
So, I do think it's pretty common. I do think that more and more people are going to be doing, and are already doing what I've been doing, which is stepping into it. I think what we need is, instead of people looking, instead of super sensitive types like myself, and maybe you, and maybe the people listening, instead of it all being on us, to own our sensitivity, to work through all the underlying trauma that's in the way, then, if you have the voice to express your sensitivity, so that other people can understand that, I think that's putting much too much of a burden on the sensitive types.
What we need is a whole cultural shift that values sensitivity and empathy the way we value … productivity.
And, until that shift happens, we're not going to be able to really see and appreciate how many of us have these gifts, and what a beautiful world we could create if given the opportunity to lead with them.
Tom: I've heard you talk about this a lot. So, how do we get there? What's the first step to move in that direction as a culture? What do you think?
David: Let's give ourselves some credit, now. We're two white men with a lot of other options on a relatively small stage, but a stage nonetheless, having an authentic conversation around empathy and emotions, and authenticity, with a lot of care, and heart, and that is rare. But, it is not unheard of, and I feel like more and more people are doing it. So, it is changing.
I feel a shift. I feel like this kind of conversation is more available now than it was 5 or 10 years ago. So, maybe the first step is to start appreciating it.
Or, one step among many parallel steps. I don't know if there is one way for it. But, one thing we can do is to start appreciating where it is happening; to start appreciating ourselves for the value of our sensitivity.
My friend has come to stay with me here, in my house, in Upstate New York. And, when she was on the plane, coming here, she had a burst of anxiety, and had trouble breathing. And, the woman next to her turned to her, and felt her anxiety, and said very intuitively, “how would it feel if I prayed with you?” And, my friend Katie said to her, “it would feel really good.” And, this woman prayed with Katie, or for Katie, and it helped calm Katie down. So, maybe let's ... I can appreciate this woman, whose name I don't even know, who is able to attune to and help my friend, Katie. Maybe what we need to do, a little at a time, is to appreciate those moments where that world that is oriented around sensitivity, empathy, care, shows up, because, it is here. It is here sometimes, and we feel it. And, let's give ourselves credit and let's give people credit for embodying it, which is what you were doing at the beginning of this podcast. And, it felt really good. More of that.
That feels like part of it. And, then there's another part of it, too, that's bubbling up in me. It's a whole different archetype. And, it's a bit of the warrior archetype. There is another part of me that doesn't just want to appreciate the sensitives among us, doesn't just want to nurture and cultivate this new and beautiful world. There's a part of me that also wants to fight for it. And, I don't actually think it's enough to hold with love, and care, and compassion, the emergent, new, beautiful world.
I do think that some of us are going to need to stand inside the old world, or at least at the threshold, and say things like “enough. This needs to stop.”
Tom: Hmm.
David:
We need to recognize that the people who are running the show are not in their hearts, are not aware of their own emotional experience, and therefore, by definition, are not attuned to others, and that the power that they have accumulated, by virtue of navigating an inhuman system, should not be theirs. And, I will not roll over and allow them to pave a parking lot over the trees in my backyard.
So, what's coming up for me here, as an example, is a week ago or so, Mark Zuckerberg changed the name of Facebook to Meta, because he has a vision of all of us living in an alternate virtual reality, Metaverse, that undoubtedly he would like to control and monetize. And, he is not remotely attuned to the subtle energetics of what's going on here, in this realm. So, the world that he is seeking to create will inevitably be even more numbing, even more disconnected. And, how is it that we can even accept this as anything but a pathetic joke? How is it that we are in a world where he has trillions of dollars, or many hundreds of billions of dollars, to create this dystopian nightmare?
I don't accept it. I will stand up and say “no.” And, more and more of us need to do that, too.
It's not enough to hold with care and compassion the beautiful world that is emerging. I think we also need to look at the toxic one that we're emerging from, and stop it, before it runs roughshod over whatever is left of our planet, and our social lives.
Tom: Hmm. I love this. Because, it's ... I agree. I think we're going to have to fight for it at some point. And, I think we should. And, I don't know, I tune in a lot to men's issues, and men's relationships with their emotions, and the idea of toxic masculinity, and how so many men conflate that idea with masculinity itself.
And, the idea that there is something wrong with shedding tears ... and, which is really just a crock, right? I mean, it's ridiculous. Because, that in particular is another bodily function. And, would we restrict any of our other bodily functions? And, if we did, what would that look like? And, essentially we're getting the same result by living in a culture where so many men bottle up their tears. It comes out in nastiness.
To me, that's what toxic masculinity is. It's when the emotions aren't processed the way that they should be. And, then men are carrying them around, and they're going to inevitably come out in ugly ways.
Right? To me, that's what it really is.
But, I've also had this feeling that it's not enough to explain it, but also just to call out the stupidity of how, historically, we've related to our emotions, especially as men in this culture.
I do a men's group once a week, and it's intimate. So, if somebody needs to shed tears, they shed tears. And, someone was talking about ... We were talking about our fathers, and if we saw them cry. And, one of them, the only time he ever saw his father cry was at his father's best friend's funeral. And, he shed tears. And, the moment he realized that his wife and kids were witnessing that, he left in shame. Pretended it didn't happen. You know, I mean, that's crazy. Right? That's so common and I don't know how I got on this little diatribe, or what you want to say about it. But, any thoughts?
David: Yeah, you did a good job of expressing how insane it is that we would value numbness, or gross displays of power, or toughness, or winning, or competitiveness, or determination, which are all sort of hyper masculine traits - some of which are of value ... Let's not diminish them all. Let’s not throw the baby out with the bathwater. But, that we would value all of those qualities and completely diminish, trivialize, or cast shame around sadness, or vulnerability, or just plain old feeling.
And, yeah, I'm with you there. I think because you did a good job of calling out the bullshit, I’ll counter it with some compassion. But if you hadn't, if you had been super compassionate, I might have called out the bullshit. I think we need both.
I would say I will say that toxic masculinity is a perfectly understandable trauma response to a childhood that demanded that you be tough.
When a boy is told to toughen up, for instance, a boy doesn't know how to process that. If you tell a six year old boy, who's crying, “you need to toughen up,” the boy does not know how to toughen up. So, what the boy hears is you need to find a way to not feel what you're feeling. And, the way to not feel what you're feeling is to dissociate, and become numb. And, from that place, the dissociated numb place, when you look around, and you see how are people surviving and thriving in this world, what you come to is that this world is a “might makes right” kind of place. Whether we're talking about professional sports, where toxic masculinity is still the norm, the NFL is a perpetual showcase of toxic masculinity. Boxing is a perpetual showcase of toxic masculinity. We still value it. Politics is a perpetual showcase of toxic masculinity, left and right. So, when you look around, you're already numb and you're trying to figure out how to survive in this world, it makes a ton of sense that you would just be like, “I'm going to be a dude.” Or, I'm going to ... this energy.
And so, we have unprocessed trauma at the root of it. And, men are not the only ones to blame. My mom didn't teach me particularly well. Though, she meant well. But, she didn't know how to help me connect with my feelings. She didn't know what another model would look like. So, we're all in this mess together. Men and women.
Tom: Absolutely. And I'm the youngest of eight. I have five sisters. And, my oldest sister, there are so many times we've spoken on the phone when she said “no, I told myself I'm not going to cry,” as if that's some sort of badge of honor, right? Like “I am imposing when I'm feeling.”
David: Breaks my heart when women apologize for crying. Breaks every time, and it happens to me all the time, because I'm with people who are in very vulnerable situations, and the woman is crying, and she's like, “I'm so sorry,” as if her tears are somehow an imposition on me.
I'm so sorry that so many women feel like their feelings are impositions, especially on to men. That's just another sign of how sideways our culture is.
Tom: Yeah, and I think about how, in order for me to be able to be vulnerable with you, or to have the courage to clearly express what I'm experiencing emotionally, which is how I like to think of it, you have to be able to receive it. Right? And, if you can't, if the recipient of the message can't tolerate it, then they have a trauma response to it, which is, basically, they're unconsciously saying “you can't come to me with stuff like this. Don't ever do that again.” Right? And, I think that happens a lot, too. So, on the personal level, it becomes a matter of finding our people who we can talk to. Because, so many people aren't equipped to do it.
David: Yes. You know, this is making me ... I have something to say before we go on, okay. I feel like what we're actually saying here is just so simple. I feel like I can summarize what it is to be an emotionally-mature and properly-oriented human, in a healthy world. And, it's basically that we're looking to shift our relationship to our emotions.
Most of us make enemies, are in the habit of making enemies, out of different emotions.
So, maybe you're uncomfortable with feeling anger. You don't feel justified being angry. So, when you feel anger, you shame yourself for being angry. Or, maybe it doesn't feel good to feel sad. And, what we want to shift here is we want to start making friends with all of our emotions, both the emotions that show up on the surface, and then the emotions that are deeper, and hiding.
We want to make friends with the emotions that we have about our emotions. So, “oh, I feel ashamed that I feel jealous.” Wonderful. You feel both shame and jealousy. Can you make friends with that? This is a healthy orientation around your emotions.
Sometimes the emotions are absolutely overwhelming, and you can't cope, and that is okay. You do not want to force yourself to experience things you can't cope with. In that case, you can distract yourself, ideally in healthy ways, and if possible, seek out help because other emotionally-aware people, or even people who connect with us, can help us regulate emotions when they become overwhelming.
What you'll find the more you do this kind of work is that what is underneath many of your emotions, especially the really intense and unpleasant ones, is trauma. Sometimes that trauma is something that happened in your own life. And, sometimes that trauma is trauma that you inherited from your parents, from your grandparents, from your lineage, from your race, from your culture. And, the work is to recognize these traumas in yourself, which ain't easy. “Oh, what's going on here is trauma. I'm having a trauma response.” And, then to start orienting around healing.
As you do this healing work, you'll notice that more and more of your organic, authentic energy comes back to you. You start to feel, in essence, more and more like yourself. And, now inspiration is more available to you. Purpose is more available to you. Joy is more available to you. And, another thing that becomes more available to you is your ability to be with other people, in their experience.
The reason it is so hard is to really be with other people and their emotional experience, especially if their experience is really painful or unpleasant, is because you haven't yet learned how to be with yourself in your own pain. So, the more you learn to be with yourself, the more you can authentically be there for others.
And, then we start to create these new kinds of communities, that are oriented around the authentic experience of each individual and their true and authentic needs; where we are in touch with ourselves, and helping other people to be in touch with themselves, and we're having open and honest, and often uncomfortable, and vulnerable, and awkward, dialogues about what's really going on with each other.
And, what we will start to find, and what I'm starting to find in my own life, is when we are able to do that, there emerges, through the group, through any group, a kind of higher-order intelligence that will guide us together. In a way, no individual ever has to figure out on his or her own, just through the surrender to this higher intelligence that emerges organically when we do enough of our own healing. We surrender to this new world bubbling up.
That's all I'm talking about. That's it. That's what I'm saying. Over and over again, in 100 different forms. This is the truth that I think humanity has been on the precipice of uncovering and naming for quite a long time. I don't think I'm saying anything original. I'm not. I don't think I'm saying anything original here. I'm 100% sure I'm saying nothing original here. But, this is the Holy Grail that I believe we've all been looking for. This is it. This is all we're talking about. It ain't easy. It's hard as hell, but it is the way.
Tom: Hmm ...
There's a quote that I really like, by an author named Sam Keene. He says “we can only choose whether we will feel and not what we will feel.” It’s so true.
David: Good quote Sam. Thank you.
Tom: Yeah, but I know for me, I think a lot of us, I have tried to, for many years of my life, to avoid the emotions to which we attach a negative value. I remember, maybe six or seven years ago, I was walking on the beach with this friend of mine, and I was 40. I was talking to her about my day-to-day life, and I mentioned on Monday evenings, I generally feel pretty lonely. And, I realized that was the first time I ever said that about myself in my entire life. I just never said it. It can't possibly be true.
And, one of the real ... A gateway for me, and my own healing over the last three or four years … You know, I've been on a healing path for a long time. And, I had all the information about adverse experiences, and could talk about them, and was willing to share those stories with people. But, what I had never done, until a couple years ago, was look down from 1000 feet at the situation, and own the fact that, while that makes for a pretty sad childhood, I never owned the sadness.
And, when I gave myself permission to do that, and to feel through it. And, you know, I literally set aside time to shed tears ... You can feel when you need to. I can. And, I kind of made that a priority for a while.
And, what I found when I started to unload all this stuff that I was carrying around ... Then it made room for joy. It made room for all the good stuff.
But, you've used the word numbing several times in this conversation, and I think that's really what it is. Either we feel our feelings, or we don't. We don't get to choose which emotional experience. Either we're going to show up for it, or we're not.
David: Yeah, I wholeheartedly agree, and I want to cut off at the pass the usual objection to this beautiful and clear distillation around feeling. So, the quote was “you can choose whether you feel, but you don't get to choose what you feel.” And, there's a lot of stories to the contrary out there, that you do get to choose what you feel. And, there's a ring of truth. You can, for instance, think of a happy memory. You can choose to think of a happy memory, and then you might feel some of the feelings associated with that memory, and so we could say, on one level, that you're choosing to feel happy.
There are some people who make whole careers out of teaching people this. So, you call in a thought or a vision or an idea. Emotions arise in relationship to that. If you do that enough, then, in theory, you're choosing, or changing, your baseline emotional experience, and you are therefore choosing to feel another emotion. I have some bad news for you though, if you've been approaching your life that way. And, I have much worse news for you, if that's what you teach ... Which is that you are not building on an authentic foundation. And, the underlying emotions that you are trying to jump out of, by calling in happier thoughts, will still be there waiting to be felt.
And so, if you put less effort into trying to cultivate positive emotions, and put more effort into trying to accept the emotions that organically bubble up, you will find, paradoxically, that you will feel more positive emotions, ultimately. And, those emotions will be felt at a much deeper level, all the way to the bottom, because you have been cultivating an authentic relationship with yourself.
So, at the deepest level, you can't really change what you're feeling. Though you can do some hacks to feel momentarily better. But hey, I'd rather go the real and deep and honest way, toward bliss, and truth, than the shortcut way, toward momentary feelings of fleeting satisfaction, that require you to go back to that method, again and again.
Tom: Well, so there's one question I ask of every guest at the end of the conversation. If there was a time in your life when you could go back to the younger David, when he would have needed some support, or a word of advice or encouragement ... when would he have needed it most, and what would you go back and say?
David: Oh. I'm eight years old. It's my birthday. I'm at a combination arcade, batting cage, go-cart racing kind of place, in L.A. somewhere. I've got about 15 or 20 friends around. And, for some reason I still can't remember, I'm really, really sad. Maybe somebody said something to me just a few minutes before, that made me really sad. But, now it's time for the cake, and my mother lights the candles. And, she walks the cake over to me, as everyone sings happy birthday. And, I see on my mother's face that she really needs me to be happy right now, even though my truth is that I am sad. And, this moment was absolutely overwhelming to me. And, I checked out of my experience, and gave my mom the face I sensed she wanted, and became a happy automaton, numbing out the sadness that was truly present.
I would like to go back, and I think I often do. I go back to that 8-year-old boy, after he blows out the candles, while his mom is cutting the cake. And, I say to him, “it really is okay to be sad right now.”
And, I can hear him respond with. “It's not okay for mom.” And, my response to him is “you're right. It's not okay for mom. But, your feelings matter, too. Not just moms feelings.”
And, I can hear him respond. “But, she'd be really mad at me. She really wants everyone to be happy right now.”
I respond to him. “I hear you, and it's going to be really, really hard for you when she's mad at you for being sad. But, it's more important that you are authentically sad, than, say, happy.”
And, now he looks at me a little bit confused, And, he said, “what do you mean by authentically?”
And, I said, “you're really sad. Be really sad. And, when Mom gets mad at you for being sad, try your best to ignore her, and find some friends you can be sad with, and you'll feel better.” And, he seems to understand that advice.
Tom: Well, I've never had anyone with such an elaborate response, and that was beautiful. Thank you.
